Some Hurd related thoughts from someone who has no right to talk

[Ricardo Wurmus]

Hi Joshua,

We need to show people how to use mailing lists. I'm actually wanting
to make a youtube video explaining this...Mailings lists are still super
hard. They are not intuitive...

What do you find unintuitive about them? Do you mean the patch workflow
via email or general discussion via mailing list?

I've started using Gnus, because John
Wigley (current Emacs maintainer) recommended it. But it is really easy
to subscribe to a mailing list and have your inbox get flooded. I
personally can no longer use my hotmail account, because I subscribed to
emacs-devel, bug hurd, bug guix, and guix devel. My inbox was
completely flooded with emails, I was unable to unsubscribe to guix
devel, and It's really hard to filter email from a mailing list out of
your inbox.
I'm currently able to use multiple mailing lists because I subscribe to
them via the email "+" trick. I think I'm subscribed to bug-hurd with
that email address to a separate bug hurd folder.

I’m subscribed to many mailing lists and I filter on the “List-Id”
header. (You will also find a link to unsubscribe in the
“List-Unsubscribe” header.) I found it more cumbersome to use email
address tags like “+bug-hurd”.

Gnus is a complex piece of software and I have to admit that despite
living in Emacs I have not been able to make it work for me. I use
mu4e, which makes searching and filtering of emails very easy. In fact,
on the server side I only have a rule to file all mailing list emails to
a separate IMAP folder. I access the mails of individual mailing lists
by filtering with mu4e.

My filter rule for Emacs devel, for example, looks simply like this:

list:emacs-devel.gnu.org

I bound that mu4e search to a bookmark so I don’t need to type it. For
Guile things its

(list:guile-user.gnu.org OR list:guile-devel.gnu.org OR
list:bug-guile.gnu.org)

and so on.

I’ll gladly share more information about this set up off list.

We need to have GNU/Hurd hangouts, just like the Emacs hangouts.
I had one such hangout, but only one person showed up. I'm not
sure what free software solution we should have to do Hurd
hangouts. Maybe Google Chat is still the best solution...

What do you mean by “GNU/Hurd hangouts”?

We need an easy way to have people assign code to GNU. If you live in
the U.S. you can actually use an electronic signature! We could have
software that would automate the copyright assigning process.

I think the problem here is not due to a lack of automation software,
but due to the fact that this is a legal process and changes thus have
to be coordinated with lawyers to make sure the assignment is still
considered valid.

--
Ricardo

[Almudena Garcia]

About Hangout, a few months ago I was in your Jitsi session, but nobody
more was there.
Furthermore, when you connected the youtube transmission, Jitsi cat the
videocall and I only could see and ear, but don't participate

About contributions to Hurd, I like to help in desktop bugs. I found

many bugs or not implemented tasks, that I desire to solve.

- Add support to other desktop manager than xdm: Currently, the only

functional DM is xdm. Lightdm is installed by default during

Xfce installation, but don't runs. I would like to solve this.
- Add support to change tty after xorg start: Currently, when you starts

xorg, you can't to return to tty, which causes many

bizzarres situations, as close xorg... From xorg, or stop the DM from

the DE terminal emulator (it is so bizarre, and use to cause

problems). I will like to solve this also.
- Enable polkit support: when the DE starts, this don't have permissions

to shutdown the system from graphical environment. The

most standard solution to this is to use polkit to allow actions to

users. I found that Hurd has polkit installed, but feels that

It isn't used. May be interesting enable it.
Other interesting thing can be recover the hard shutdown (shutdown

machine, not only the system), but It feels so difficult.
These would be some awesome bugs to fix!!!

My knowledge is so limited. I have experience with bash scripting and

GNU/Linux administration. I have also knowledge of C++ and

basic C. In classroom I learn a bit about POSIX process management, with

fork(), execl(), fifos, pipes and message queue. But I

never touched the deep of a OS.
Now I'm searching a Pentium 4 computer to try Hurd installation in real

machine. Previously I got a successfully installation in a

2000's AMD computer, but this PC is so slow to run the DE correctly.

I would actually recommend that you just run the Hurd in qemu. Most, if
not all, of the main Hurd developers just run the Hurd inside qemu.
Also a cool idea! I believe I read somewhere that it possible to have
the Hurd running in qemu, but make the X server run in Linux. This is
apparently a really stable way to run the Hurd.
Also, maybe you and I could try to start up a GNU/Hurd hangout session.
Kind of like the Emacs hangouts.

If you are in Facebook's GNU/Hurd group, you can to read about my

experiments with Hurd in Virtualbox and in the real PC. I was

talking with Thomas Schwindge in this group.
Now I have to study my exams, but someday I would to contribute to Hurd

project

P.S. Samuel feel free to let me know if this email sounded too

presumptuous.

It doesn't sound so to me. Thanks for writing it :)
(I just doubt that much business can be done with the Hurd, but who
knows :) )
Samuel

[Joshua Branson]

About Hangout, a few months ago I was in your Jitsi session, but nobody more was there.
Furthermore, when you connected the youtube transmission, Jitsi cat the videocall and I only could see and ear, but don't participate

Really? That's the second time that I heard that. After I spent an
hour recording the video to youtube, I stopped recording for youtube.
Then someone could start participating. I guess that Jitsi doesn't
support recording to youtube and participating at the same time.

About contributions to Hurd, I like to help in desktop bugs. I found many bugs or not implemented tasks, that I desire to solve.
- Add support to other desktop manager than xdm: Currently, the only functional DM is xdm. Lightdm is installed by default during
Xfce installation, but don't runs. I would like to solve this.
- Add support to change tty after xorg start: Currently, when you starts xorg, you can't to return to tty, which causes many
bizzarres situations, as close xorg... From xorg, or stop the DM from the DE terminal emulator (it is so bizarre, and use to cause
problems). I will like to solve this also.
- Enable polkit support: when the DE starts, this don't have permissions to shutdown the system from graphical environment. The
most standard solution to this is to use polkit to allow actions to users. I found that Hurd has polkit installed, but feels that
It isn't used. May be interesting enable it.
Other interesting thing can be recover the hard shutdown (shutdown machine, not only the system), but It feels so difficult.

These would be some awesome bugs to fix!!!

My knowledge is so limited. I have experience with bash scripting and GNU/Linux administration. I have also knowledge of C++ and
basic C. In classroom I learn a bit about POSIX process management, with fork(), execl(), fifos, pipes and message queue. But I
never touched the deep of a OS.
Now I'm searching a Pentium 4 computer to try Hurd installation in real machine. Previously I got a successfully installation in a
2000's AMD computer, but this PC is so slow to run the DE correctly.

I would actually recommend that you just run the Hurd in qemu. Most, if
not all, of the main Hurd developers just run the Hurd inside qemu.
Also a cool idea! I believe I read somewhere that it possible to have
the Hurd running in qemu, but make the X server run in Linux. This is
apparently a really stable way to run the Hurd.
Also, maybe you and I could try to start up a GNU/Hurd hangout session.
Kind of like the Emacs hangouts.

If you are in Facebook's GNU/Hurd group, you can to read about my experiments with Hurd in Virtualbox and in the real PC. I was
talking with Thomas Schwindge in this group.
Now I have to study my exams, but someday I would to contribute to Hurd project

P.S. Samuel feel free to let me know if this email sounded too presumptuous.

It doesn't sound so to me. Thanks for writing it :)
(I just doubt that much business can be done with the Hurd, but who
knows :) )
Samuel

[Almudena Garcia]

P.D.: Excuse me my bad english. I'm spanish ;)

About contributions to Hurd, I like to help in desktop bugs. I found many
bugs or not implemented tasks, that I desire to solve.
- Add support to other desktop manager than xdm: Currently, the only
functional DM is xdm. Lightdm is installed by default during Xfce
installation, but don't runs. I would like to solve this.
- Add support to change tty after xorg start: Currently, when you starts
xorg, you can't to return to tty, which causes many bizzarres situations,
as close xorg... From xorg, or stop the DM from the DE terminal emulator
(it is so bizarre, and use to cause problems). I will like to solve this
also.
- Enable polkit support: when the DE starts, this don't have permissions
to shutdown the system from graphical environment. The most standard
solution to this is to use polkit to allow actions to users. I found that
Hurd has polkit installed, but feels that It isn't used. May be interesting
enable it.
Other interesting thing can be recover the hard shutdown (shutdown
machine, not only the system), but It feels so difficult.
My knowledge is so limited. I have experience with bash scripting and
GNU/Linux administration. I have also knowledge of C++ and basic C. In
classroom I learn a bit about POSIX process management, with fork(),
execl(), fifos, pipes and message queue. But I never touched the deep of a
OS.
Now I'm searching a Pentium 4 computer to try Hurd installation in real
machine. Previously I got a successfully installation in a 2000's AMD
computer, but this PC is so slow to run the DE correctly.
If you are in Facebook's GNU/Hurd group, you can to read about my
experiments with Hurd in Virtualbox and in the real PC. I was talking with
Thomas Schwindge in this group.
Now I have to study my exams, but someday I would to contribute to Hurd
project

P.S. Samuel feel free to let me know if this email sounded too

presumptuous.

It doesn't sound so to me. Thanks for writing it :)
(I just doubt that much business can be done with the Hurd, but who
knows :) )
Samuel

--
Enviado desde mi Jolla

[Joshua Branson]

Post by Almudena Garcia
P.D.: Excuse me my bad english. I'm spanish ;)

Don't feel bad. I admire a lot of French and Spanish developers. :)

Samuel may be one of them...

Post by Almudena Garcia
About contributions to Hurd, I like to help in desktop bugs. I found many bugs or not implemented tasks, that I desire to solve.
- Add support to other desktop manager than xdm: Currently, the only functional DM is xdm. Lightdm is installed by default during Xfce installation, but don't runs. I would like to solve this.
- Add support to change tty after xorg start: Currently, when you starts xorg, you can't to return to tty, which causes many bizzarres situations, as close xorg... From xorg, or stop the DM from
the DE terminal emulator (it is so bizarre, and use to cause problems). I will like to solve this also.
- Enable polkit support: when the DE starts, this don't have permissions to shutdown the system from graphical environment. The most standard solution to this is to use polkit to allow
actions to users. I found that Hurd has polkit installed, but feels that It isn't used. May be interesting enable it.
Other interesting thing can be recover the hard shutdown (shutdown machine, not only the system), but It feels so difficult.
My knowledge is so limited. I have experience with bash scripting and GNU/Linux administration. I have also knowledge of C++ and basic C. In classroom I learn a bit about POSIX process
management, with fork(), execl(), fifos, pipes and message queue. But I never touched the deep of a OS.
Now I'm searching a Pentium 4 computer to try Hurd installation in real machine. Previously I got a successfully installation in a 2000's AMD computer, but this PC is so slow to run the DE
correctly.
If you are in Facebook's GNU/Hurd group, you can to read about my experiments with Hurd in Virtualbox and in the real PC. I was talking with Thomas Schwindge in this group.
Now I have to study my exams, but someday I would to contribute to Hurd project

P.S. Samuel feel free to let me know if this email sounded too presumptuous.

It doesn't sound so to me. Thanks for writing it :)
(I just doubt that much business can be done with the Hurd, but who
knows :) )
Samuel

--
Enviado desde mi Jolla

[Amos Jeffries]

I would actually recommend that you just run the Hurd in qemu. Most, if
not all, of the main Hurd developers just run the Hurd inside qemu.
Also a cool idea! I believe I read somewhere that it possible to have
the Hurd running in qemu, but make the X server run in Linux. This is
apparently a really stable way to run the Hurd.
Also, maybe you and I could try to start up a GNU/Hurd hangout session.
Kind of like the Emacs hangouts.

Speaking of that. I tried to follow the instructions at
<https://www.gnu.org/software/hurd/hurd/running/qemu.html> yesterday. It
seems to be very much in need of updating.

Since the section is about use on Debian it should at least mention the
packages (qemu-kvm) that need installing for the kvm command to work
properly. The links are also all stale, though at least there are
working redirectors in place.

AYJ

[Joshua Branson]

Post by Amos Jeffries

I would actually recommend that you just run the Hurd in qemu. Most, if
not all, of the main Hurd developers just run the Hurd inside qemu.
Also a cool idea! I believe I read somewhere that it possible to have
the Hurd running in qemu, but make the X server run in Linux. This is
apparently a really stable way to run the Hurd.
Also, maybe you and I could try to start up a GNU/Hurd hangout session.
Kind of like the Emacs hangouts.

Speaking of that. I tried to follow the instructions at
<https://www.gnu.org/software/hurd/hurd/running/qemu.html> yesterday. It
seems to be very much in need of updating.

Are you sure? Which ones don't work?

I've never had a problem with the first two:
$ wget http://people.debian.org/~sthibault/hurd-i386/debian-hurd.img.tar.gz
$ tar -xz < debian-hurd.img.tar.gz

I have had problems with the last command:

$ kvm -m 1G -drive cache=writeback,file=$(echo debian-hurd-*.img)

mainly that "kvm" is not the command you use. I've always had to run
qemu-system-i386.

My script looks like so:

#!/bin/bash
modprobe kvm
modprobe kvm_intel
cd ~/programming/gnu/hurd/vm/
MEMORY=2G
FILE=debian-hurd-2017-06-13.img
# If I ever need to add a cdrom
echo "running ssh"

qemu-system-i386 -m $MEMORY -net nic \
-net user,hostfwd=tcp:127.0.0.1:2222-:22 \
-drive file=$FILE,cache=writeback,format=raw \
-enable-kvm \
-curses \
-no-reboot;
# -curses \
# -machine kernel_irqchip=off \

Post by Amos Jeffries
Since the section is about use on Debian it should at least mention the
packages (qemu-kvm) that need installing for the kvm command to work
properly. The links are also all stale, though at least there are
working redirectors in place.

P.S. I have a video at youtube explaining how to contribute to the Hurd
wiki. My channel is called the GNU Guy. If you do decide to edit the
wiki, send your patch to bug-hurd. No one uses the web-hurd mailing list.

Post by Amos Jeffries
AYJ

[Amos Jeffries]

Post by Joshua Branson

Post by Amos Jeffries

I would actually recommend that you just run the Hurd in qemu. Most, if
not all, of the main Hurd developers just run the Hurd inside qemu.
Also a cool idea! I believe I read somewhere that it possible to have
the Hurd running in qemu, but make the X server run in Linux. This is
apparently a really stable way to run the Hurd.
Also, maybe you and I could try to start up a GNU/Hurd hangout session.
Kind of like the Emacs hangouts.

Speaking of that. I tried to follow the instructions at
<https://www.gnu.org/software/hurd/hurd/running/qemu.html> yesterday. It
seems to be very much in need of updating.

Are you sure? Which ones don't work?

The section is talking about qemu, but as a newbie having installed the
qemu package (apt says successfully) the "kvm" command still will not
work. It needs the qemu-kvm package specifically.

And most of the URLs mentioned are outdated, more updated ones seem to
be listed inside the README.

Post by Joshua Branson
$ wget http://people.debian.org/~sthibault/hurd-i386/debian-hurd.img.tar.gz
$ tar -xz < debian-hurd.img.tar.gz

"HTTP/1.1 400 Bad Request"

Location:
https://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/ports/latest/hurd-i386/debian-hurd.img.tar.gz

Samuel seems to only have a Hurd repo in his directory now. Not the
built images.

Post by Joshua Branson
$ kvm -m 1G -drive cache=writeback,file=$(echo debian-hurd-*.img)
mainly that "kvm" is not the command you use. I've always had to run
qemu-system-i386.

The kvm command seemed to work fine once I moved to other documentation
about KVM instead of qemu had me uninstall qemu and install the qemu-kvm
package.


AYJ

[Joshua Branson]

Post by Amos Jeffries

Post by Joshua Branson

Post by Amos Jeffries

I would actually recommend that you just run the Hurd in qemu. Most, if
not all, of the main Hurd developers just run the Hurd inside qemu.
Also a cool idea! I believe I read somewhere that it possible to have
the Hurd running in qemu, but make the X server run in Linux. This is
apparently a really stable way to run the Hurd.
Also, maybe you and I could try to start up a GNU/Hurd hangout session.
Kind of like the Emacs hangouts.

Speaking of that. I tried to follow the instructions at
<https://www.gnu.org/software/hurd/hurd/running/qemu.html> yesterday. It
seems to be very much in need of updating.

Are you sure? Which ones don't work?

The section is talking about qemu, but as a newbie having installed the
qemu package (apt says successfully) the "kvm" command still will not
work. It needs the qemu-kvm package specifically.

hmmm. It sounds like you should contribute to the hurd website!
There's a webpage on it on the wiki or you could look up my contributing
video on my youtube channel: "The GNU Guy".

Post by Amos Jeffries
And most of the URLs mentioned are outdated, more updated ones seem to
be listed inside the README.

Post by Joshua Branson
$ wget http://people.debian.org/~sthibault/hurd-i386/debian-hurd.img.tar.gz
$ tar -xz < debian-hurd.img.tar.gz

"HTTP/1.1 400 Bad Request"
https://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/ports/latest/hurd-i386/debian-hurd.img.tar.gz

Where are you seeing this? I don't see that URL on
https://www.gnu.org/software/hurd/hurd/running/qemu.html

why don't you try getting the latest debian-hurd image available via
this command:

$ wget http://people.debian.org/~sthibault/hurd-i386/debian-hurd.img.tar.gz

Post by Amos Jeffries
Samuel seems to only have a Hurd repo in his directory now. Not the
built images.

Post by Joshua Branson
$ kvm -m 1G -drive cache=writeback,file=$(echo debian-hurd-*.img)
mainly that "kvm" is not the command you use. I've always had to run
qemu-system-i386.

The kvm command seemed to work fine once I moved to other documentation
about KVM instead of qemu had me uninstall qemu and install the qemu-kvm
package.

Again this should be fixed on the website. You can do it! Send your
patches to the bug-hurd mailing list.

Post by Amos Jeffries
AYJ

[Almudena Garcia]

Another interesting thing could to be update the FAQ

https://www.gnu.org/software/hurd/faq_inlined.html

Post by Amos Jeffries

Post by Joshua Branson

Post by Amos Jeffries

I would actually recommend that you just run the Hurd in qemu. Most,

if

Post by Amos Jeffries

Post by Joshua Branson

Post by Amos Jeffries

not all, of the main Hurd developers just run the Hurd inside qemu.
Also a cool idea! I believe I read somewhere that it possible to have
the Hurd running in qemu, but make the X server run in Linux. This is
apparently a really stable way to run the Hurd.
Also, maybe you and I could try to start up a GNU/Hurd hangout

session.

Post by Amos Jeffries

Post by Joshua Branson

Post by Amos Jeffries

Kind of like the Emacs hangouts.

Speaking of that. I tried to follow the instructions at
<https://www.gnu.org/software/hurd/hurd/running/qemu.html> yesterday.

It

Post by Amos Jeffries

Post by Joshua Branson

Post by Amos Jeffries
seems to be very much in need of updating.

Are you sure? Which ones don't work?

The section is talking about qemu, but as a newbie having installed the
qemu package (apt says successfully) the "kvm" command still will not
work. It needs the qemu-kvm package specifically.

hmmm. It sounds like you should contribute to the hurd website!
There's a webpage on it on the wiki or you could look up my contributing
video on my youtube channel: "The GNU Guy".

Post by Amos Jeffries
And most of the URLs mentioned are outdated, more updated ones seem to
be listed inside the README.

Post by Joshua Branson
$ wget http://people.debian.org/~sthibault/hurd-i386/debian-

hurd.img.tar.gz

Post by Amos Jeffries

Post by Joshua Branson
$ tar -xz < debian-hurd.img.tar.gz

"HTTP/1.1 400 Bad Request"
https://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/ports/latest/hurd-

i386/debian-hurd.img.tar.gz
Where are you seeing this? I don't see that URL on
https://www.gnu.org/software/hurd/hurd/running/qemu.html
why don't you try getting the latest debian-hurd image available via
$ wget http://people.debian.org/~sthibault/hurd-i386/debian-
hurd.img.tar.gz

Post by Amos Jeffries
Samuel seems to only have a Hurd repo in his directory now. Not the
built images.

Post by Joshua Branson
$ kvm -m 1G -drive cache=writeback,file=$(echo debian-hurd-*.img)
mainly that "kvm" is not the command you use. I've always had to run
qemu-system-i386.

The kvm command seemed to work fine once I moved to other documentation
about KVM instead of qemu had me uninstall qemu and install the qemu-kvm
package.

Again this should be fixed on the website. You can do it! Send your
patches to the bug-hurd mailing list.

Post by Amos Jeffries
AYJ

[Joshua Branson]

Post by Ricardo Wurmus
Hi Joshua,

We need to show people how to use mailing lists. I'm actually wanting
to make a youtube video explaining this...Mailings lists are still super
hard. They are not intuitive...

What do you find unintuitive about them? Do you mean the patch workflow
via email or general discussion via mailing list?

With respect, I mean that they do not work out of the box. If I wanted
to start working with a project on Github or Gitlab, then I can use a
web interface. While I agree that mailing lists are probably superior,
since people can use whatever email client that they want...mailing
lists are still difficult for the computer illiterate to use.

Post by Ricardo Wurmus

I've started using Gnus, because John
Wigley (current Emacs maintainer) recommended it. But it is really easy
to subscribe to a mailing list and have your inbox get flooded. I
personally can no longer use my hotmail account, because I subscribed to
emacs-devel, bug hurd, bug guix, and guix devel. My inbox was
completely flooded with emails, I was unable to unsubscribe to guix
devel, and It's really hard to filter email from a mailing list out of
your inbox.
I'm currently able to use multiple mailing lists because I subscribe to
them via the email "+" trick. I think I'm subscribed to bug-hurd with
that email address to a separate bug hurd folder.

I’m subscribed to many mailing lists and I filter on the “List-Id”
header. (You will also find a link to unsubscribe in the
“List-Unsubscribe” header.) I found it more cumbersome to use email
address tags like “+bug-hurd”.

How do you filter on the "List-Id" header? I only know how to do that
via a sieve script. Personally, I think that the server should
filter all emails. I believe that generally the client is not very fast
at filtering emails.

Post by Ricardo Wurmus
Gnus is a complex piece of software and I have to admit that despite
living in Emacs I have not been able to make it work for me. I use
mu4e, which makes searching and filtering of emails very easy. In fact,
on the server side I only have a rule to file all mailing list emails to
a separate IMAP folder. I access the mails of individual mailing lists
by filtering with mu4e.
list:emacs-devel.gnu.org
I bound that mu4e search to a bookmark so I don’t need to type it. For
Guile things its
(list:guile-user.gnu.org OR list:guile-devel.gnu.org OR
list:bug-guile.gnu.org)

Thank you for explaining this. That would be a VERY NICE way to use
mailing lists, but the average computer user, or the beginning hacker,
doesn't know how to set up mu4e. You have to install it, configure it,
and setup a maildir. I personally had a really hard time trying to
figure out how to use offlineimap or the alternatives.

I completely agree that mailing lists are superior. I just wish that we
had an equally good web-based workflow. That way new contributers could
use the web-based workflow...Then when they are ready to use an email
based workflow, they could.

Post by Ricardo Wurmus
and so on.
I’ll gladly share more information about this set up off list.

Yes please. I'm always glad to learn new things.

Post by Ricardo Wurmus

We need to have GNU/Hurd hangouts, just like the Emacs hangouts.
I had one such hangout, but only one person showed up. I'm not
sure what free software solution we should have to do Hurd
hangouts. Maybe Google Chat is still the best solution...

What do you mean by “GNU/Hurd hangouts”?

Sacha Chua had a Emacs Hangouts. Once a month she would use Google
Hangouts and people from all over the world would listen and chat. She
had specific interviews with Emacs developers, etc. Those hangouts were
actually how I found out about golden-ratio-mode, which is an awesome
Emacs minor mode!

It would be nice if the Hurd had a similar thing. There are cool things
that people can do with the Hurd already, but it's not really well known.

Post by Ricardo Wurmus

We need an easy way to have people assign code to GNU. If you live in
the U.S. you can actually use an electronic signature! We could have
software that would automate the copyright assigning process.

I think the problem here is not due to a lack of automation software,
but due to the fact that this is a legal process and changes thus have
to be coordinated with lawyers to make sure the assignment is still
considered valid.

I actually talked to the copyright assignment guy, who works for the
FSF. He told me that he tried to write a tool that would accept
copyright assignments. He personally is not a developer, so he could
not finish it. BUT he encouraged me to write such a tool. Maybe I'll
spend a weekend making a wordpress theme that'll do this.

Post by Ricardo Wurmus
--
Ricardo